Online Conversations About...

Women in Church Leadership

OK, OK, as a woman I feel compelled to jump in and give my several cents worth. Some of this is getting a bit insulting. For example:

>>Tell me, Ed, besides being so sure that God commands no ordination for women, what is it about the actual make up of the female nature that renders her unable to give spiritual leadership in an ordained position of the church?<<

First off, let me say that my husband and I carefully examined the issue of women in church leadership and authority (especially in regards to the position of elder) and came to the conclusion that this was not something that Scripture allowed. (Of course we recognize that more learned minds than ours have come to the opposite conclusion.) It became obvious to us that God has separate, unique roles and ministries for men and women within the family and within the church. We personally in good conscience could not belong to a church that violated Scripture and put women in the position of teaching and exercising authority over men. (In some respects, I felt more strongly about this than did my husband.)

And, for the record, let me make it clear that I am not some doormat/dishrag of a woman who is convinced that men are somehow superior. Ask my husband--if I could find a Biblical basis for me to boss him around, I'd love it!

Being supposedly "deprived" of the opportunity to be an elder does not mean I am without a voice. Most elders are married. If they are godly men, they realize that their every decision will impact their wives and families, and their leadership will take into account what is best for everyone's spiritual well-being, but most importantly what will most glorify God.

One of the things that troubles me about women seeking ordination and positions of authority is that they completely neglect the important ministry given to them in Titus 2:3-5. Women are not being ministered to adequately in most churches today. This is not due to a lack of women elders and pastors; it is because older women are unwilling or unable to fulfill their commission to disciple and teach the younger women. Men cannot step into this role, but unfortunately it is one that most women have abandoned.

As for the question of consulting women before making policy statements regarding ordination...which women do you consult? I don't especially like the assumption that this is some male versus female disagreement and that all women think alike on this issue. I know women who have left churches because of women being elected to the elder board. There is no united female consensus on this issue, just as there is no united male consensus.

Besides, are we now to vote on how Scripture is to be interpreted? I can just see the results of that..."Here at the Church of the Most Popular Doctrine, we have voted out all of the Scriptural injunctions against fornication, adultery, greed, stealing, and lying. We've decided that these Scriptures have been falsely taught all these years. Plus, we've decided that sola scriptura is out, indulgences are back in (we need a new church sanctuary), and that you can be a good Buddhist and go to heaven." Sorry, but too much weekend has made me perhaps a bit flippant...

>>You and your husband came to your conclusion. You recognize that "more learned minds" come to the opposite conclusion.<<

We also recognize that more learned minds than ours have come to the same conclusion: that the Word of God prohibits women from teaching and exercising spiritual authority over men.

>> I assume you would not conclude that those who disagree with you are not Christian.<<

Your assumption is correct.

>>Does it ever make you pause for a moment and entertain a doubt about your own conclusion when you realize that other Christians sincerely and with spiritual and intellectual integrity have, indeed, reached the opposite conclusion you have reached? Do you simply dismiss all who disagree as violators of Scripture? What explanation do you give yourself as to why these people reach the opposite conclusion as you reach?<<

We paused for more than a moment; we spent months intensively researching this very issue, reading commentaries that presented a variety of viewpoints, and writing a position paper to present to the leadership of our church. There are various reasons that people have reached opposite conclusions. Perhaps to oversimplify things a bit: most of the "opposing arguments" were based on the presupposition that the New Testament passages concerning the role of women in the church applied only to those particular churches in that particular culture. However, there is nothing in the texts themselves to support this position.

>>If so, then at what point may a boy no longer be under the authority of his Sunday School teacher?<<

The obvious and simple answer is: when the boy becomes a man. We could probably have all sorts of lively discussions about when exactly that happens...but I'd rather not get bogged down...

>> And, as I asked before, what about women judges, women CEO's, women in position of authority throughout society?<<

I think the passages in the Epistles make it fairly clear that they are speaking of women's roles within the church, rather than within society at large.

>>Interesting that in your light-hearted description of yourself, you seem to say that the authority the Bible gives the husband has something to do with "bossing" someone around. What biblical basis do you find for the husband to "boss" the wife?<<

Come on--I was JOKING...certainly I don't see biblical authority as merely "bossing". Certainly both my husband and I see his role as servant/leader. Yes, Christ was a servant--however, even his enemies recognize that He taught with great authority. My husband serves our family in his role as our leader. He doesn't "boss us around" in some sort of tyrannical fashion because, frankly, it's unloving and unnecessary. For the most part, we desire to submit to his God-given authority. (Our children, being children, balk a bit at times...)

ELBeal hit the nail on the head: >>Also, I do not recall in Rumpelst's post that she said her husband was the boss, just that she would like to be the boss (and, if we are honest with ourselves and with God, so would we all, except for those all too brief moments when God's grace has completely overshadowed us).<<

>>You realize, of course, that not all women are married to elders who can voice and consider their wives' concerns. In fact, some Christian women are not married at all. So, who speaks for them? Who listens to them? In my denomination we do allow women to vote in congregational meetings. By your understanding that would be completely unnecessary, wouldn't it? Your understanding seems to suggest that the best a woman can hope for is that some man, somewhere, will give her a sympathetic ear when it comes to making decisions about the church.<<

One could also say: You realize, of course, that not all men are elders. Not all men have elders as friends or family members who can voice and consider their concerns. In fact, most men will never become elders at all. So, who speaks for them? If they belong to a church that is not run by congregational vote, the best most men can hope for is that some elder, somewhere, will give him a sympathetic ear when it comes to making decisions about the church.

Maybe I'm naive, but I believe that, even though my husband is not an elder, my spiritual well-being is of importance to the elders in my church. Since they fulfill the requirements of elders as outlined in Scripture, I have quite a bit of confidence in them. Even though they are men, I don't think that they are so blinded and deafened by testosterone that they are incapable of speaking for the entire congregation. (Said a bit extremely in order to make a point...)

>>I have only one comment:

RUMPLEST IS RIGHT!!!!

Anita<<

Thanks, Anita...sometimes I feel like a lone woman crying in the wilderness...I think more people need to realize that this entire issue should not be reduced to some sort of conflict between a supposedly patriarchal church structure filled with male oppressors on one side and poor, downtrodden women on the other...

>>Well, Rumpelst, you write that you "feel like a lone woman crying in the wilderness..."<<

I meant that in the sense that the general assumption seems to be that women will not hold to or agree with my position. Thus I wrote "lone woman" as opposed to "lone person".

>>And what do you find in the texts to indicate that the Bible does NOT apply only to those particular churches? I'm assuming you don't insist on women keeping their heads covered in church, or that men always refrain from wearing hats, since this would "dishonor his head" re, 1Cor. 11.<<

Actually, I've not yet resolved the headcovering issue for women. However, both my husband and I agree that he is not to cover his head in church. (The passage does not say men should ALWAYS refrain from wearing hats, if it is taken in context.)

There is danger in deciding "that the Bible DOES apply only to those particular churches." How far does that decision go? Do we toss out only what we personally don't care to obey? Do we toss out all of the epistles? Do we toss out the Gospels as well, because we are not part of the "target audience"?

Actually, in studying the passages pertaining to the role of women in the church, we discovered that they were written in the context of passages that have been generally recognized to pertain to the church at large, throughout history.

>>Why not conclude that, in fact, you are being disobedient to God's will for the creation when you acknowledge the authority of a Queen, a female judge, a female professor in grad school, etc.etc. It isn't just the church, is it? It's the whole creation.<<

Yes, Paul appeals to creation. However, he does so in the context of discussing the church, not in the context of discussing all of society. However, having said that, I must also say that you are only assuming my disobedience. I do not acknowledge the authority of any Queen. I had one female professor; however, I do not feel it is disobedient for me to be taught by an older woman in or outside of church. I can honestly say that I am under the authority of my husband, not of any woman. I would not place myself in a position of authority over men, be it in or outside the church, nor would I teach my daughter that such a thing is advisable or proper.

>>Why not insist that in the church whatever educational programs the church officially offers should be taught by men, because the Bible does not allow a female to have authority over a male.<<

Having not studied the original languages, I have to rely on my collection of translations, none of which indicate that a female is not to have authority over a male of any age, but that a woman is not to have authority over a man. If women should not teach boys, then are mothers not to teach or have authority over their sons? A cursory reading of Proverbs would quickly show that mothers are to instruct and train their sons, and we also have the example of Timothy's mother and grandmother. However, frankly, I sometimes question the entire concept of Sunday School, but that's an issue far beyond the scope of this folder.

>>And I still don't understand how a single adult female should submit to the God-ordained authority of the male over her. She has no husband, so is she to submit to her pastor? her father? her elders? her male supervisor? any man in the church?<<

Many believe that, until she is married, a woman is under the authority of her father. Part of our marriage ceremony symbolizes this transfer of authority. ("Who gives this woman...?") Certainly, she is under the spiritual authority of her church leadership, as is any adult, no matter his or her sex or marital status. As far as her "male supervisor"--I'm not sure what you mean. Assuming you mean her boss at work--I don't believe that, just because she is a single woman, she is exempt from being a good employee any more than a married man would be. Certainly there is nothing in the Bible that indicates "any man in the church" can exercise authority over any woman. There are no passages that can even be stretched to mean something like "Young women, submit yourself to any and all men in the church."

>>And finally, Rumpelst, I still want an answer to my question as to what it is within the very nature of a female that renders her unable to exercise spiritual authority. Did God create women capable of exercising spiritual authority and then decide to make a law that says they may not do this? Or did God create women in such a way that they are simply incapable of exercising spiritual authority? Or, if we look at people moving to faith in Christ, receiving the promised Holy Spirit, etc., does the Holy Spirit give something to men that the Holy Spirit does not give to women which enables men to have spiritual authority and women not to have this?<<

Paul appealed to the order of creation. This would seem to indicate that God, from the very beginning, intended for men and women to fulfill different roles and ministries. Certainly His very creation of our obvious physical differences--and the roles and functions these differences enable us to fulfill--indicate that God did not intend for us to be mere duplicates of one another, in either identity, role, or ministry.

I've given the question of women's capability for spiritual leadership a bit more thought. I'm wondering if you're presenting the argument I've so often heard: "Women are just as capable as man. Who are we to insist a woman should not exercise her abilities and gifts?"

There is, in the context of the position I am arguing, a tremendous need and role for women to fulfill within the church, an arena for women to exercise their abilities and gifts. I have mentioned Titus 2:3-5 before: "Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God." There is an extreme need for this sort of ministry in the church today. I have heard from young mothers time and time again, in a variety of churches, the complaint: "Why does the church ignore this passage? Why can't I find a single older woman who is willing to teach me these things, to minister to me as a woman?"

Obviously, if God intends for the older women to function in this way, He has given them the ability to do so...or He is willing to equip them to do so. However, while I have heard many women clamoring to serve as elders and pastors, I have heard no one clamoring to fulfill this important ministry to women. (I know of a few women--very few--who are quietly and obediently ministering in this area.)

In a previous church, women served on all the boards except for the Deacon/Elder board. (That has now changed; the majority of elders are women.) I was part of a group of women that met to explore how the church could effectively minister to women. We took a survey of all the women in the church, to find out what they wanted from a "women's ministry". Many of the women under the age of 50 listed things like the following: older, godly women as mentors and counselors; childrearing instruction from women who had successfully raised children; teaching from women on how to be a godly wife; classes on courtship, dating, and preparation for marriage; encouragement and prayer with other women; practical instruction in the "lost arts" of homemaking; prayer partners to pray for each other's families; support groups for everything from coping to infertility and pregnancy loss to breastfeeding; childbirth classes from a Christian perspective; practical ministries like bringing meals to families when the mother is sick; guidance in dealing with contemporary women's issues; etc., etc. A number of women were upset that they had to go far outside of the church in order to have these needs met. Many of the younger women were willing to pitch in and do their part, but felt ill-equipped to take on leadership in ministry.

We discussed the results of the survey in a meeting attended by representatives of women from all age groups, both single and married, and by the women who held leadership positions within the church. Sad to say, many of the women in leadership actually scoffed at some of the listed needs. "They really want sewing classes? Yeah, I can just imagine me teaching someone to be little Miss Suzy Homemaker!" "If they need help being good parents, they should read Dr. Dobson's books." "Childbirth classes? I'll teach 'em everything they need to know: 'scream for all the drugs you can get!!'" "Why can't they just pick prayer partners on their own?" "Frankly, most of this bores me." Nothing positive ever came of our meetings.

Now that half the elder board is women, you would think that ministry to women would take a high priority. Hardly. A number of families have actually left the church because of its lack of support for mothers and families. Others continue to seek what they need outside of the church.

Our current church has strong male leadership. It's a small fellowship, yet what impresses women immediately is the depth of ministry among the women. One elderly woman has commented several times, "In all my years of attending church, I have never seen women care for each other in this way." None of us want to be elders; none of us believe that this is God's will for the church. We do want to minister and to use the gifts God has given us. As our church grows, we are excited to see how this ministry to women and their families will grow.

(Sorry for the length of these posts...which probably bored everyone else to tears...hopefully, in a roundabout way, they addressed a few of Bobo's questions..)

Note: In this particular discussion, not one woman was arguing for women leadership in the church. I found that both interesting and ironic.

copyright 1995 by Rebecca Prewett

Return to the Online Conversations Page

You are the visitor to this page.

All articles authored by any member of the Prewett family are copyrighted. They may not be reproduced online or elsewhere without our expressed, written permission. Articles written by other authors contain copyright notices where appropriate.